Policed State in Amsterdam?
Tonight my friend and I were forcefully searched by the Dutch police walking out of a restaurant. The police had no reason or right to search as we were exhibiting no suspicious or illegal behavior.
update:
Because this film does not portray the events completly, I ask that you listen to this podcast by bicycle mark before posting.
AudioCommunique #83(mp3)
31min+, 80kbps, 17Mb+
This post would have probably been understood better had the title read, "Is Amsterdam becoming a policed state?"
It is not a major event folks, but it is a warning sign. It's not about being searched on the streets or about being Dutch or American, it's about civil rights and how much of your freedom you are willing to give away for the feeling of security? I would have gladly been searched if there was some terrorist, or illegal action taking place in the area. But there was not. I was simply walking in an open space, and EVERYONE was being frisked. There was no discrimination by the police on that point. I agree that in other countries this is MUCH worse. I always felt safe in the Netherlands, and always respected the way the Police carried themselves. Up until now. That's what this is about, nothing more, nothing less.
As far as the palbeach video that people are reffering to: It is very shocking to see what happend. The woman was speeding and was asked repeatedly to step out of her vehicle. She was breaking the law, and then resisting the officer's to step out of her car. I don't think walking out of a restuarant constitues breaking the law.
I know the footage that I filmed is not enough to give the whole picture. I wish I could have had it running the whole time, but I can't film my life 24-7, and furthermore it's not about America. Pavle says it best: "Does this put it in the same league as blacklisted torture camps? Of course not. Then again, the film is an off-the-cuff personal item and should not be seen as an intentional statement on the state of the world."
update:
Because this film does not portray the events completly, I ask that you listen to this podcast by bicycle mark before posting.
AudioCommunique #83(mp3)31min+, 80kbps, 17Mb+
This post would have probably been understood better had the title read, "Is Amsterdam becoming a policed state?"
It is not a major event folks, but it is a warning sign. It's not about being searched on the streets or about being Dutch or American, it's about civil rights and how much of your freedom you are willing to give away for the feeling of security? I would have gladly been searched if there was some terrorist, or illegal action taking place in the area. But there was not. I was simply walking in an open space, and EVERYONE was being frisked. There was no discrimination by the police on that point. I agree that in other countries this is MUCH worse. I always felt safe in the Netherlands, and always respected the way the Police carried themselves. Up until now. That's what this is about, nothing more, nothing less.
As far as the palbeach video that people are reffering to: It is very shocking to see what happend. The woman was speeding and was asked repeatedly to step out of her vehicle. She was breaking the law, and then resisting the officer's to step out of her car. I don't think walking out of a restuarant constitues breaking the law.
I know the footage that I filmed is not enough to give the whole picture. I wish I could have had it running the whole time, but I can't film my life 24-7, and furthermore it's not about America. Pavle says it best: "Does this put it in the same league as blacklisted torture camps? Of course not. Then again, the film is an off-the-cuff personal item and should not be seen as an intentional statement on the state of the world."
Tags: police civil+rights amsterdam mayor
gabemac posted at 04:40 |
permalink
106 Comments:
You rock, man! I promptly posted this to http://wearethemedia.com. Good job holding your composure in the face of the authorities. Your action is an inspiration to ordinary people around the world who carry a camera!
By
Anonymous, at 6:42 AM
Man, I just watched it again. I love that line, “What’s wrong? I can’t film my friend… I can film myself.” I always carry my camera now and I'll be prepared to use that line. Getting used to pointing a camera at yourself in public has its perks.
By
Anonymous, at 6:44 AM
i still dont understand their reasoning. i also cant believe that was in amsterdam....
good job gabe.
this is exactly why blogging with video is so powerful.
By
Jay Dedman, at 6:50 AM
Man, the netherlands used to be a liberal country.
By
Denkedran, at 9:27 AM
ugh... Gabe you're a citizen media hero. Ive been fearing this whole emergency search crap and I try never to walk anywhere in hopes that the minute I see cops Ill turn around and ride away... but this is disturbing and Im asking myself what the hell can we do. If I ID myself as a european citizen can I seek shelter at my embassy or something. fuck..
By
Bicyclemark, at 12:16 PM
it is an outrage, and ridiculous behaviour by the cops. But I'm not surprised by the fascist remarks they made. When it comes to intellect and reasoning, Dutch cops are just one step up from wheel clampers.
I admire your cool, gabe, I would have probably flipped out so much they would have put my in isolation and flown me to Egypt..:-]
@Jay, are the random searches in the subway still going on?
By
Anonymous, at 12:31 PM
Thanks for all the comments guys. This just gets me more driven to try and get more cheap cameras and vlogging tools into everyone's hands. That way if we all film ourselves, they can't do a thing. Peaceful demonstrations through vlogging.
By
gabemac, at 1:06 PM
So Dutch cops are just like ordinairy people right? Tell me something new. To be honnest, I do not like being vlogged in public as well. You guys knew that the cops would react this way. Some kind of cheap vlogging activism imo. Keep on doing the other good stuff :-)
By
Anonymous, at 1:40 PM
Funny how you may not film them, while they're filming you all the time. You should've asked them that, Gabe; http://jult.nl/amsterdam/lampcam
You guys know about the Patriot Act being prolonged for 7 more years if you don't massively protest against it soon? Amsterdam cops used to not be like this, in my memory anyway, they picked it up from your beloved government making up 'wars against terrism' perhaps? Or from France? Am I blaming the US? No, not the country, not the regular people, but the ones in control.
And what's with all the shooting in The Netherlands these days? Where do these weapons come from? Pretty soon everybody starts thinking: "I should carry a gun, it's shooting or being shot!"
By
Firehorsepower, at 2:40 PM
I am speechless!
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Tamara le Roy, at 3:05 PM
Whoa! It seems like this was similar territory to the subway searches in NY (though more forceful and with more sense of authoritarian urgency). It made me wonder if perhaps they were acting on some sort of terror threat in that area or something-- not that this justifies it, at all. But as we progress in this stage, we are more and more confronted with these questions about individual rights vs. 'the good of all' or 'our safety' How do they choose who gets searched? Based on look or randomly? If they are searching for bombs but find drugs, can they still punish? The governments are criticized if they search people and criticized if something terrible happens, (which probably furthers their authoritarian frustration) so they should probably just close up shop and let someone new try! Clearly your rights were violated, which sucks! I'm just trying to explore what leads to that.
By
Clark ov Saturn, at 4:12 PM
I'm the type of person who would probably start yelling and create a scene, get my head split open with a billy club and be permanently banned from the country or get the label of terrorist applied to me. I really admire you keeping your cool.
By
Carl Weaver, at 4:12 PM
Me Want Power!
Fucking cops.
The same everywhere I guess.
By
Anonymous, at 5:38 PM
"your behavior" thats rich, you ask "why are you pissed off?" and the officer replies, because of "your behavior" , that is a totally ridicules response. When challenged with a legitimate question asked in a civil manner these coppers are fucked, great video.
By
Anonymous, at 5:46 PM
Well guys, let me just chime in with one legal point in the situation. Fluox, as a private citizen in a public space you may be filmed. You may object to either the (prolonged) registration of footage or against the broadcasting of the footage. You have very limited rights to prevent someone from filming you in a public area. The same applies to the police. They may not like it but they do not have the right to stop you, especially not when they are acting in an official capacity. They can ask for the footage to be shelved if it endangers their current or future investigations but they do not have a right to 'privacy' when they act in public.
On a more assinine note: what right to privacy do they have while they are invading mine.
Furthermore, the policema specifically informed me that we were in no way suspects of any crime or midemeanor which essentially make it an illegal search.
By
Pavle, at 6:07 PM
Makes me wonder why they acted like they did. Sure they were way out of line (no doubt about that), but if you were shooting me at that point and I had asked you to stop the coverage, would you have the same provocative reaction? This is no legal question but a moral one. Legally you can have all the right in the world...
By
Anonymous, at 6:33 PM
Wow that was amazing. Yep. People often get pissed when you record them doing something they know to be wrong.
By
Verdi, at 7:58 PM
@Fluox: okay, let's look at it from a moral point of view. I feel that if you approach me, 'enter my space' you have less right to object to my filming you. I realise it's annoying, but the camera at that stage becomes a defensive mechanism.
At a very abstract level, the camera's saying, 'listen, I may not be able to stop you from what you're doing, but I am going to record it, so watch what you're doing'. In that sense it's almost a weapon, and in this case, it's a defensive weapon.
I too would not welcome having a camera pointed at me, I would not seek it out. Don't forget, this is a 'first person' recording. This isn't someone zooming in on a stranger from the other side of the street: it's a recording of what happened to the person with the camera. So in that sense, I feel the 'moral' right to oppose the recroding was not present. To draw a skewed parallel, no bank robber wants to be recorded on film. It all boils down to how we define space and privacy, and I say, you concede part of your privacy when you act in a public space, and you loose your right to protect your privacy when you invade someone else's space.
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Pavle, at 8:00 PM
Man, this video is going to become a historical landmark. This is oging to start a WHOLE discussion about what right we have (and don't have) as videobloggers.
The video scares me.
At least, now I know that if something like that happens to me, I'm going to start recording myself, at least we'll be able to hear the police men talking...
Man, I'm still in shock watching it... Your last sentence is awesome!!!!!
By
Anonymous, at 9:56 PM
you say it well, Pavle, I concur. I keep thinking about what I (really) would have done, said or acted like, and talked to Bicyclemark about that, but I keep ending up with a civilised demeanor, almost excusing those coppers for being ignorant. The buck really stops where the law and civil rights begin. And a camera should not be central to that discussion.
By
Anonymous, at 10:09 PM
it's great to see such courage by both of you. without such resistance to authoritative abuse, it would escalate uncontrollably.
By
Nick, at 10:30 PM
holy shit! i live in a terrible country!
By
Anonymous, at 12:15 AM
Wow, pretty interesting piece of video... great discussion :-)
By
DucSloerie, at 12:22 AM
Wiendelt: Cool politics is aware of this. And Pavle: you say it well.
Am proud of how you guys acted, calm but standing up for yourself. I think many people nowadays can take this as an example. Most don't stand up for themselves anymore or do it in such a way (by agression or terrorist-actions) that this is one of the results....???
By
Tamara le Roy, at 12:46 PM
Tamara, the most fightening thing in the clip is the note of fear combined with agression in the voice of the cop talking to Gabe. It used to be that Dutch police officers could defuse situations very well by treating even suspects with respect.
What you miss in the video is the fact that there was between eight and ten policemen there, maybe even more. In other words, there was more than enough of them to beat Gabe and me into a bloody pulp if we'd misbehaved. And still the officer's tone is one of agression mixed with fear. That I don't understand...
By
Pavle, at 3:08 PM
exactly my point. You guys were calm and reasonable, but the cop was making thing worse...that's the world upside down isn't?
By
Tamara le Roy, at 3:22 PM
This irrational unjustified fascist behaviour gets me livid! Use your rights and remaining freedom to "stick it to the man"! Vive la revolution!
By
Anonymous, at 3:40 PM
pavle said: It all boils down to how we define space and privacy, and I say, you concede part of your privacy when you act in a public space, and you loose your right to protect your privacy when you invade someone else's space.
@pavle: You made me think for a while and I guess you're right. I'm also aware that this question on privacy and space going to be answered a lot of times in a lot of different ways when vlogging takes of. But I'm glad we're all here to take these issues serious sometimes. Keep up the good work!
By
Anonymous, at 8:56 PM
this cool gabe!!!!!
what a good film! this is the reason to videoblog
groeten hugo
By
Anonymous, at 10:52 PM
Hey Gabe - are you sure you're in Amsterdam? I didn't think they'd be going crazy like that there.
Awesome job! I really admire you for keeping your cool like that and even more for posting this.
By
Chris Ritke, at 10:59 PM
I don't see what the big deal is - a couple of white dudes challenging police authority in Amsterdam is nothing compared to a couple of black dudes doing the same in Los Angeles; the former have much less to fear. African Americans get stopped and searched all the time in L.A.; whenever they challenge the search they get arrested (or something far worse).
I'm not trying to dis you, Gabe - your video post is a good example of the power of videoblogging. Yet I'm waiting for the real deal; get these tools and the knowledge of blog technologies into the hands of the poor and black people of America and you'll see some real harassment. Rodney King was nothing.
(By the way, I'm a white dude and native son of Los Angeles.)
By
Harold, at 1:07 AM
nice post
i love it when people use the excuse "because i say so" to get you to stop doing something.
she was pissed because you were taping the situation but was just like "you're pissing me off, just because, and i'm a cop, so behave"
insanity.
glad you captured this.
lets pass it around!
By
ryanne, at 2:43 AM
please, do pass this around, and let everyone know what a terrible policestate the netherlands is. that it is not safe there, unlike mayor u.s. cities, that you will be hassled where ever you go!
..
if showing this video to as much americans you can muster will stop them from comming to amsterdam and stop them from puking and pissing against my door after smoking to much weed, i will be dead fucking happy.
..
keep up the good work, ass.
By
Anonymous, at 12:28 PM
Boohoo f'in hoo
If you would do the same you get tazed in the USA.
Typical provocation with the camera.
Smartasses challenging the cops.
If you wouldn't have behaved like such asses, then you wouldn't have been stopped.
By
Anonymous, at 12:29 PM
Hi wankers, your police are behave in the boring United states of nord america. Open your eyes sissies!!!
Hans.
By
Anonymous, at 12:29 PM
Randon searches are necassary since the good old US of A made such a mess all over the world.
And what is the problem anyway. It is the exact same treatment you get from US customs everytime I enter the USA.....
And you probably would not have done this in the USA...
By
Anonymous, at 12:34 PM
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html
By
Anonymous, at 12:34 PM
All your buddies on this blog think that you are really cool, but I just think it is plain stupid to be pointing a camera at a police officer.
Please remember next time that when you treat someone like a jerk, their behaviour towards you will be likewise.
By
vanderwijk, at 12:35 PM
Did it ever occured to you that it is legal by Dutch laws to stop you and search you?
So what's all the fuzz about?
By
Anonymous, at 12:35 PM
If you really think your rights where violated you should file a complaint with the police. Why are you just blogging about this? Maybe because you realise that nothing happened, really. I mean, they searched you. Big deal. Do you realize that dozens of wapens are taken of the street every night by the same police officers? And that this makes walking in Amsterdam at night a lot saver?
By
Anonymous, at 12:37 PM
Get real, so you got searched. Big deal, get over it. You would rather have it that you can't walk in the streets at night because it's too dangerous??? If you don't like it, piss off to your own country.
By
Anonymous, at 12:37 PM
I'm from the Netherlands, the country has been too liberal. Let's end it.
By
Anonymous, at 12:38 PM
Well, it was kind of expected. Listen to the policeofficer. That's what you're thought in USA as well.
This might jog your memory to what might happen to people not listening to the police in the USA.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html
Seems our officers were actually quite nice to you :)
By
Anonymous, at 12:39 PM
In the US you would have been arrested under the Terrorisme Act for doing stuff like this.
So if you don't like it, get the hell back to the US.
And yes, Dutch police officers do get irritated by arrogant Americans who think that rules only apply to others.
By
Anonymous, at 12:40 PM
@Johnny,
Watch what you're talking about, being searched prevently can happen to anyone in the major cities here.
And guess what, American people which behave arrogant and like an asshole towards a police-officer, will receive a police-officer which acts like an asshole to them.
I think I've been far more times in Amsterdam at than this great hero of yours and I haven't been searched any time.
Go figure
By
Anonymous, at 12:50 PM
I guess the only reason why this movie is on the net and why you guys are pissed off .. is because your huge American ego's have been crippled.
The cop was 100% authorized to search you and because of these kind of policies .. Amsterdam is safer than LA or NY.
By
Anonymous, at 12:52 PM
on one hand: yes Dutch police officers can be like that, I was once yelled at because I didn't wanna open my bag, which at that time was still my right, for searching my possesions they need suspicion of me carrying fire arms. So the police officer (f) started yelling: Assholes, we'll get you! Not very professional I'd say.
On the other hand, would you try and smart out an American cop like that? Americans do not have a good name here anymore, and after all the media hyping of the Aruba case...do me a favour. It was just a cop and they do that to Dutch citizens as well. Relax. He didn't kill you did he?
By
Anonymous, at 12:54 PM
Great journalism! Lets f*ck the police, keep them from doing their job and let's see what happens. The american police indeed behaves much better : http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html
By
Anonymous, at 12:56 PM
Hi guys,
preventive searching of people is legal here in the netherlands. So you might pay attention to the law when you VISIT a countrie and keep in mind how foreigners are treated in the USA.
By
Anonymous, at 12:57 PM
Well well that was very exciting... Moehahaha!!!
By
Anonymous, at 12:57 PM
This stuff is why a lot of people hate Americans. Walking around the world and behave like you fucking own the damn planet. These police-officers were doing their work for YOUR safety. You should act that way against American cops, you was probably beat up and thrown in jail. But I guess you should like it in jail, together with a nice Bubba....
By
Anonymous, at 12:58 PM
Please send this to all your friends and all of your intelligent news reporters (especially those on Fox TV) so everybody can see that Holland is becoming part of the axes of Evil too....
Probably this police officer did you a favor, giving you this video is better than those little wooden shoes and tulips souvenirs you bought, isnt it? ISNT IT???!!!!
please boycot us, just like Aruba and never come to Amsterdam (or the rest of Holland) again!
Ps: say hello to our beloved friend George W.
By
Anonymous, at 12:58 PM
Weren't you guys in the red light district? There are other rules applied. And yes, those cops were just morons.
By
Anonymous, at 12:59 PM
Stop crying u bitch.
Rules apply for everybody no exceptions.
Ive u dont like it whats stoppping u to go back to your all wonderfull land of the free etc shithole?
U are just an other example of US stupidity thinking the world turns around them.
By
Anonymous, at 1:03 PM
And? So? What?
By
Anonymous, at 1:03 PM
a) you're a visitor; act like one
b) when a police officer asks for your cooperation, work with them, they're just doing their job.
It can happen; being asked for ID's and being frisked while in Amsterdam. It's done randomly in certain public areas, especially on busy nights like friday or saturday. They collect a lot of knives and other weapons that way.
It's no fun, but just go along with it and you'll be on your way again in minutes. Or, be a smartass about it and start an irrelevant and boring discussion.
Christ, you should see what american customs put tourists through before letting them in.
In conclusion; this only confirmes what i already knew; all lawyers are assholes and i haven't seen an exception to this rule yet.
By
Anonymous, at 1:05 PM
Ah well... Dutch officers should search every American who comes to The Netherlands...
Anyway... we in the Netherlands are mild. We don't use stun guns. They are prohibited I think, because it's torture or cruel behaviour against humans. But eh... we know what you Americans do with your prisoners:
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
Ubu Ghraib is against all human rights...
By
Anonymous, at 1:07 PM
Your complaining about our police misbehaviour, is like a chinese complaining about the sparrow that was shot.Makes no sence. If you want to do something about human rights go to Guantanomo Bay.I would like to hear you complain there.I actually would like you there.
By
Anonymous, at 1:07 PM
Whoooooot......Thta search is nothing...wait till Bubba searches you.Than you can scream about being violated.
See this as a nice lesson that you shouldn't go around videotaping everyone..(try this for example near the Pentagon or some other high risk building in the US.)
So, stop whining and enjoy the hits on your not so amazing blog and your 15 minutes of fame with this piece of footage
By
Anonymous, at 1:13 PM
Why do americans think Holland is liberal? You have a blurred vision of Holland. Stop living in the past. Does the invading of Irak and therefore the dostroying of a foreign culture/people stand for American liberalism?? Than I am not a liberal!!!
By
Anonymous, at 1:15 PM
Rules are fucking rules in the Netherlands! You don't like the rules? Don't come here.
Read it suckers http://www.politie-amsterdam-amstelland.nl/frameset/get.cfm?id=209
By
Anonymous, at 1:15 PM
A lot of you seem to have a wrong idea of the authority Dutch police officers have nowadays. I think you all watched Pulp Fiction in which it is claimed that Dutch police officers do not have the right to stop and/or frisk you. Sadly enough, the cops DO have the right to do preventive friskin' to their liking.
By
Anonymous, at 1:17 PM
Did you by any chance catch a glimpse of Natalee Holloway with your camera?
By
Anonymous, at 1:20 PM
Any of you American guys got any idea what EVERY foreigner visiting the USA have to go through at any of your international airports? Mistreatment of foreign visitors is an American speciality.
By
Anonymous, at 1:22 PM
You really made an ass of yourself...I must say dutch police handled this 'situation' very mature and didn't let themselves be provocated by a supposed 'laywer' and his 'first-time-out-of-the-states'friend
By
Anonymous, at 1:24 PM
You shoulda listened, instead of being a smartass. It's sad that it has to be that way, but it's the only way nowadays.
By
Anonymous, at 1:25 PM
The laws, which allow the police to search anyone they (do not) like at anytime or anyplace, were introduced to the Netherlands one or two years ago by our God and George fearing government. The law could and would not have been introduced without referring to the war on terror. And since we do not have any terrorists in the Netherlands, that will be convicted by our judges, these laws serve only as an excuse to harass foreigners (preferably with tainted skins). So they have the right to search you, and, like any other person with an authoritarian world view, they will treat you badly if you try to reason with them.
By
Anonymous, at 1:25 PM
oh. and mail me please:
f.depauw@quicknet.nl
if u dare!
By
Anonymous, at 1:26 PM
For any English-speakiuing readers, here's my take.
There have been several shootings in Amsterdam during the preceding weeks and there certainly is, contrary to the random image presented at the end of the film, reason for the authorities to step up surveillance. The rather childish pair were simply provoking a reaction. It is good that their faces are on the internet. I'll be looking out for them. The police are the only people standing between me and some distinctly dangerous people. I respect them because in 25 years in this country, as an adult ex-pat from Britain, they have never given me reason to dislike them. That is a great track record, and a tribute from someone who grew up in seventies (terrorism ravaged)Britain who brought an attitude along with himself. They take risks for me, so don't fuck with them. If leftwing Americans want to project their puerile fantasies onto the Dutch, then the only thing they achieve is to reveal how ignorant they are. You might try learning a language if you're not too stoned. It helps to know the circumstances before you open your big fat prejudiced mouth.
Cynics have (partially) destroyed the liberal atmosphere in the Netherlands, so they have also damaged my life. Don't misjudge the mood.
By
Anonymous, at 1:31 PM
I don't know why you got stopped by the cop in the first place, but from what i can see is that he is trying to explain why they are going to search you and why they are entitled to do so (new acts as result of terrorism threats and increased violence in downtown Amsterdam - where you were).
Then you think to know why they are NOT allowed and start acting up. Now that kind of behaviour will not be tolerated by any cop wherever in the world. Realise that cops are being insulted and deal with people who think to know better every day so his being pissed off i can understand. You should have judged the situation a bit better and just dropped it. What's the point, it's for your own safety.
In another country the reaction could have been far worse and I think you know this very well.
Can't and won't blame you for putting it online though, cause the same experience in USA by a Dutch guy would have lead to the same being blogged on a site here.
Keep coming to Amsterdam people, you can still have experiences here out in the open that you won't be able to do anywhere else.
Junglim
By
Anonymous, at 1:32 PM
that's holland, we have the right to search everyone. To prevent teh police from discrimination they search erevryone, also Americans!!!!!!
By
Anonymous, at 1:32 PM
Yes we were a very liberal and free country, until those fucking Bush-americans decided to go to war in Iraq, and gave all the fucking terrorists a good reason to terrorize us all.... So shut the fuck up with your videoblog and go tell Bush to get the hell out of Iraq, so we can be free and liberal again and all you us bloggers can come here and smoke and fuck and drink again.
By
Anonymous, at 1:39 PM
This is the pot calling the kettle black. Where the hell do you think all these overeager anti-terrorism measures and laws came from in the first place?
Thank you very much for bringing that crap to the Netherlands and then complaining about it.
At least be glad instead that you have less chance of being blown to bits in downtown Amsterdam than you have in Jeruzalem or Detroit.
When in Rome do as the romans. Especially when the Romans have just adopted your own ways.
By
Anonymous, at 1:39 PM
Would you 2 bitches be bitching, as you are, if you had been filming a person being searched by the police then finding a bomb or guns, knives, etc?? No, don't think so huh!
It's just the fact that your American bubble had been violated by a non-American police officer and that pisses you off.
Go back to George and your land of the free, where no one gets randomly searched by the police (as if...).
Leave Amsterdam and Holland before you people drag it down even further!
By
Anonymous, at 1:40 PM
The police is doing their job, so just don't be so irritating. The police is right in this case. The Dutch police isn't so bad..
Try to be so irritating to a Spanish, Us or French cop. Then you would have a movie we could enjoy!
Tip: Know the law before coming to our country.
Stupid Whiners
By
Anonymous, at 1:51 PM
Do you want The Netherlands to be liberal again? Then go on to the streets in your own country and rally against all the hostile actions American Forces are taking all over the world in the name of 'justice' and 'democracy'.
If people in a country like living in a dictatorship, then let them, even if there is oil to be found there.
Our government of bad-hairday-pussies is acting towards the US as a dog to its master. So why do you think all of a sudden frisking-for-no-reason is so commonplace in "risk area's"? These area's are where there are a lot of people, so a potential bombing-area. We are now using the USA-way of dealing with a threat of terrorism, thank you for that!
Oh, and when you do hit the streets in your own country, be sure to film that as well. I'm curious how your own fine policeforce will treat you. Remember, you only got frisked in A'dam!
By
Anonymous, at 1:57 PM
God, nag nag nag, if you haven gotten stabbed that night you would have nagged too right? The frisks are there to make it safer to go out and walk outside at night. And maybe you cant understand that they frisks RANDOM people, that also includes people who might not be planning to do bad stuff. Two people walking on a street like you were might not be a big treath, but two people like you could also be having knives and stuff in your pockets. They cant discriminate, so they randomly frisk people, and they have the right to do so. It's dutch law, and guess what, you were on dutch soil, as in not owned by the USA, so US laws dont apply. But I guess in the US its normal to just frisk black people and let the white man walk. Because you would never be able to be a treath right? I hope you enjoy going out in the USA, and maybe you will have the luck to get stabbed/shot by a person who might have been busted with a random frisk. No hard feelings, like the police officers said, dont like it? Go back to your own country... for once it really is that simple...
By
Anonymous, at 2:08 PM
Cops in most other countries (including some European, but for sure the USA) would have used physical violence in a similar case as the one videotaped by you.
Consider yourself lucky you did this in Holland. Take this sad blog offline and next spring break go to Florida instead.
By
Anonymous, at 2:08 PM
Anyway how long did this take? I myself am hold regular one or more hours at the Laredo border carrying a Dutch passport, the different is I don’t piss them off because I know I will be screwed.
Not to mention the times I was separated at Houston airport – on a connection to Holland that is - where the wanted to check my passport, 45 minutes without explanation, close to 2 hours when coming back a week later…, go play with you cam at that spot.
Not that i get shocked like people writing comments here, I know before leaving I am facing a shit trip due to butthead Yankees.
By
Anonymous, at 2:24 PM
Did I mention, carrying a Dutch passport but still pictures been taken as well fingerprints, every f*cking time I cross your f*cking border? Like they can’t manage a bloody database those yanks.
By
Anonymous, at 2:28 PM
Thanks to you americans we are having this situation here in the Netherlands. If you wouldn´t be going out stealing oil and killing innocent people in the Middle East, we could be living here peacefully.
By
Anonymous, at 2:29 PM
You got stopped by a cop who asked to search you.
You tried to reason your rights.
You had no rights.
You got searched and were not allowed to video tape it.
-------------
World news? I think not.
By
Anonymous, at 2:29 PM
The reason u got searched is ure own Bush. He started all the madness! And if someone doenst wants 2 be filmed, u shouldnt film. Those cops are just doing their job. In every other country they would have crashed ure camera and beat the shit out of u.
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Anonymous, at 2:39 PM
Noobz!
In the US the cops first shoot and then ask...
So what are you complaining about?
If it ain't Dutch it ain't much ;-)
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Anonymous, at 2:57 PM
Aan onze lieve Hollandsche Freunden zeg ik: dank voor jullie hartelijke welkomstboodschappen.
Voor de rechtsliefhebbers onder jullie : kijk even naar de uistpraak van de Amsterdamse gerechtshof LJN: AU3200, 23.645.05 op www.rechtspraak.nl. Preventief fouilleren op deze wijze is door de rechter illegaal bevonden.
By
Anonymous, at 3:01 PM
Excuse me, All who have their opinion about 'the wanker americans' ready:
1. We don't want Holland to turn into the next USA, maybe that’s what the discussion should be about? And that’s exactly what this particular American is trying to say. Maybe he doesn’t want the European atmsophere to change into the American?
2. It’s about civil richt. Everybody got search, male female, black, white and yellow, Dutch and foreign, because there was a so called 'emergency' on Leidseplein. (which they couldn’t see)
3. At this moment, as far as we know, it is illegal to search just anybody if there is no just cause. (aanleiding/ verdacht gedrag)
4. These two men (just one of them American btw-get your information straight) have both been living in Amsterdam for several decades and have received their education here in Holland.
5. The one who's not American is actually a Dutch Lawyer, so he does know what the fuck he's talking about.
6. All the respectless assumptions get me really fucking pissed off, as if they were tourists misbehaving....! Fuck you, they pay more taxes than most of you, and really contribute to this society.
All they want is fror Holland not to turn into a second USA, and keep citizens aware of their rights, as theirs get violated.
7. Funny how people can turn all fascist on you when you’re trying to keep the rest od teh world turn into a next USA. The whole point being that it is NOT about being American, but a citizen of this country.
8. If the police had ASKED them to cooporate, they would have. It is the fact that they did not and did not want to answer the questions that these two men, (who ar NOT visitors, but uitzien of Holland!!!!) asked them about the frisking not being legal.
Let's keep the discussion about civil rights and not living in fear of terrorism. What rights are you willing to give up for safety?
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Tamara le Roy, at 3:10 PM
well, I put a post on my blog where I was able to let off some steam ...
I don't understand some of you (commenting) guys. Just chill out will you? Respect each others freedom of mind and speech and don't get personal for god's sake-
...Try anger management if you find yourself strangling your pets
or family and friends from time to time...
and try to read a good book now and then.
By
In-Ah, at 4:01 PM
I am overun with the love you guys are sending. Thank you for all the comments. Some of you actually thought about what this is showing rather than going along with the masses. To those few I aplaud you. Let me just get some things straight here:
- I am ashamed of what happens in the United States with these random searches. If you were not aware NY city just recently had a large debate about the exact same thing. And yes I have been searched in the U.S. before. However there has always been a reason for it, i.e. I was entering an airport, subway station or other enclosed public space. Not publicly on the street.
- My friend is a Dutch lawyer, and knows what the fuck he is talking about when he says that the random searching action is not legal, according to the Tweede Kamer.
- You xenophobes really scare me. I've been living in the Netherlands for half my life, and probably for longer than some of you who have been posting go back to your own country.
- Yes it is bad in America. That is the point. If you don't want it to turn into America 2.0 I suggest you seriously start rethinking your comments and start taking action to preserve the civil rights you have while you still have them. Before long the Dutch could be seeing themselves have their own Patriot Act in effect. I don't want to see that as much as you don't.
- I apologize for trying to stand up for my and your rights as citizens of the Netherlands. I guess it's true what that say in holland, "Doe je normaal, do je al gek genoeg." If we keep with this credo, watch our civil rights disappear in the face of fear.
- I turned off the anonymous comments as I felt people were just starting to spam hate messages. This is not a censorship action as even weblogs like geenstijl and insane films have the same measures in place. If you really want to post a comment, register and post. Think about what you post, and try not to be a xenophobe.
As a last note, stop flamming everyone people. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a yelling festival. Whatever your feelings are on the subject, I am sure there is a validity to it, but think before you post please.
By
gabemac, at 4:20 PM
@ Karelk: Liever in het Nederlands? Kan mij wat schelen.
Vraag me af wanneer bij jou het kwartje valt dat het niet gaat om Amerika of Nederland en de tegenstellingen daarin. Feit is dat een groot deel van Europa anti-Amerika is en zoals Bush en consorten zich de afgelopen jaren hebben geprofileerd in onder andere Irak etc, ja, daar heb ik ook mijn mening over en die zal misschien weinig van de jouwe verschillen. Maar daar gaat het dus niet om.
En om iedere willekeurige Amerikaan (of Engelssprekende gefilmde vriend)daarop aan te spreken terwijl die juist een punt wil maken over de onwetmatigheid van dit soort zaken in NL, lijkt mij de plank nogal mis te slaan.
Nog even een herhaling van een andere comment:
"Voor de rechtsliefhebbers onder jullie : kijk even naar de uistpraak van de Amsterdamse gerechtshof LJN: AU3200, 23.645.05 op www.rechtspraak.nl. Preventief fouilleren op deze wijze is door de rechter illegaal bevonden."
Daar gaat het om. En zoals je op In-Ah's blog zegt: jij leest liever een boek? Probeer er eentje over de Nederlandse wet?
Zal mij hierna weer tot de Engelse taal beperken om deze blog voor wereldburgers leesbaar te houden. Think outside of the box...(of landsgrenzen...)
By
Tamara le Roy, at 4:28 PM
or go see a good movie...
'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire' comes to mind.
I hear he gets frisked by some hot mermaids and 'sent home' by a bunch of nasty grindylows...
sorry couldn't resist :)
By
In-Ah, at 4:42 PM
@ In-Ah:
Thanks for putting a smile on my face. After all these negative vibes it's nice to focus on your huge talent as an animator for a change.
;)
Maybe we should consider having political discussions like these at home in the future, since it apperently is quite impossible to talk about the issue at hand online. Although I would so much like to believe that there are more people like us who want to think and talk about moral issues without throwing dirt at each other.
Cheers
By
Tamara le Roy, at 5:22 PM
Seriously, what is the problem.
First of all, you are actually misinformed: the police can only do this because it was mandated by politics - they have to ask for special permission. If you had cared to listen, that was what he was trying to explain to you.
Besides which, the cops were actually quite friendly and even explained what they were doing and why.
Don't be whining bitches.
Go find something that's actually worth being angry over. Secret CIA-prisons in the eastern block comes to mind. This is gay.
By
ModernMan, at 5:30 PM
I agree Hans there are worse things than this. As there are better blogs than this for political discussions on the matter. This is just what happend to me (Gabemac) and my friend Pavle. Not the other Gabe by the way for all clarity.
I disagree the cops didn't give us a legal reason for searching us or anyone else who walked by the same spot that night. But it doesn't matter. They searched us anyway, and I would have let them search me if there was a terrorist action in the area, someone was murdered or what have you. None of that was the case. So you feel I'm winning about the situation, fine. I just posted what happend to me like I do with many things in my life. That's what I do as a video blogger. I would do the same thing in the states and probably be arrested for that or worse. I agree. I always felt safe in Holland, living here for half my life. It was a shock to have this type of treatment happen here as I feel Amsterdam is more my home than anywhere else in the world.
And we were not drunk. I had half a beer.I was not being abusive or mean, but being calm. Like I am trying to be now. Please note this is not about being American or Dutch. It's about how much personal privacy do you release for security. That is the discussion.
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gabemac, at 5:45 PM
Hans,
I'm afraid you're missing a point when you comment on the basis for the search. The specific order ('last') is given by the 'Officier van Justitie' (Public Prosecutor) who is a member of the appointed (as in: not elected) judiciary. Furthermore, he does this on the basis of a scope defined by the mayor (who is also an appointed/non-elected official). So that if by saying politics, you wish to say it was done by a democratically controlled institution, you are wrong.
The appelate court in Amsterdam found these actions illegal less than two months ago but the mayor has continued them in a slightly changed form.
Now as far as the rest of the world's ills are concerned, our encounter with the police officers on Friday was not fun for us. Does this put it in the same league as blacklisted torture camps? Pfcourse not. Then again, the film is an off-the-cuff personal item and should not be seen as an intentional statement on the state of the world.
By
Pavle, at 5:50 PM
Chris,
I'll be brief since I've already gone through the legalities in short on geenstijl (and I presume you cam through there).
First of all, end of september the appelate court in Amsterdam judged preventive searches illegal. If I'm not mistaken, friday's was the first search after the judgement.
Under Dutch constitutuinal law, the mayor cannot abridge rights granted to us by the constitution while the government cannot abridge granted to us by treaties. Both of these happened in the case of the rules regarding preventive searches.
Regarding the links to this item, this was done by others. Should Gabe have removed the video when others started linking to it?
By
Pavle, at 11:07 PM
Skyhigh
I agree the states are searching nuts. What does it achieve? I'm not sure. I mean the whole taking off the shoes thing? Don't forget the taking off of the belt. And taking of the fingerprints is absolutly scandolus. And I back you 100% on that.
I agree Holland is a wonderful country. That's why I love living here, and have enjoyed living here for half my life. I do speak Dutch very well, but this is a very international blog, so my apologies for not posting in Dutch.
I did try cooperating with the officer. I just wanted a valid explanation as is our right.
By
gabemac, at 11:16 PM
Thank you praesipower,
This film may or may not be helping us getting any further. It was not meant to be a political film but a simple registration of what little footage I had of the incident. I didn't edit anything out of it.
I agree that the cops have a shitty job having to do this. I was trying to talk to the cops before and afterwards so that they could give the point of view and wasn't trying to provoke anyone. I have learned a lot from this experience about how a little film can cause such a reaction. When I posted this little thing I had no idea that it would spread like this. I only have about 50 people look at this site who are mainly friends. I was rather ignorant of the far reach it could have. Please look at my other video postings which are always about how great life is here. It's a one off instance, but it happened to me and this is my vlog.
I think your english is superb!
By
gabemac, at 12:34 AM
Rasputin,
sorry to dissapoint you but I wasn't stoned, neither was I drunk. If my reasoning was a bit on the slow side on the video, then it's partially because I'd been very surprised by the whole event. And yes, my comment (with which the video starts) was filmed afterwards.
Now as far as the officers are concerned, while the audio might not be completely clear, I spoke with them in Dutch so there was no language barrier. Furthermore, you seem to imply that there may have been an actual reason for the search: that some crime may have taken place and that they were searching people in relation to the crime. The problem with that theory is that the way preventive searching works, it's not possible for them to set up these controls in response to a specific incident. The police get their charge from the public prosecutor in advance. So unless they were looking for knife wielding rapists who were there the night before, your theory doesn't work.
On another note, there are already enough possibilities in the law to enable the police to investigate a greater class of potentially suspicious persons in case of a greater localised threat.
As far as my knowledge of the laws is concerned, I wouldn't want to have all the laws in my head. But on the issue of legality, my reaction was based on general knowledge that all people who've studied law in the Netherlands will have. Our rights as individuals (and they differ depending on whether we're citizens or just humans) are part of Dutch constitutional law. (Staatsrecht, and if you’re studying it at the UvA you’ll probably study it from a handbook written by an ancestor of our current justice minister).
I was refering to one of the main human rights conventions that the Netherlands have signed up to, the Council of Europe’s Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. This treaty contains the following article:
Article 8 . Right to respect for private and family life
1 Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2 There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
The thing is that I wasn't appealing to a loophole in the law. If any part of the story concerns a loophole then it's the preventive search procedure which is not formally regulated but consists of cross-references in two acts which enable a mayor and a public prosecutor (neither of whom are democratically controlled) to decide which parts of town are 'risk-areas'. If you read up on the issue (look at the link to the Amsterdam city site in one of the posts above) you'll see that a fair chunk of the city center inside the Stadhouderskade has been called a risk area.
We're not just talking of the Leidseplein, Rembrandtsplein and maybe the Reguliersdwarsstraat here. We're also talking about the Spuistraat, the 9 straatjes etc., all areas which were always generally safe and pleasant. So, no I don't buy your argument that there was (or even could have been) a specific cause. Moreover, the policeman could have very easily said that the search was related to an ongoing investigation in which case we would have complied very quickly. For me, this is the whole story: authority is not a justifier in its own right. If I go to a nightclub, I accept that the people at the door are there to guarantee the security of the people inside. By entering I accept their rules or I can refuse to be searched and not go in. (You might have noticed that the better clubs in town don’t pat you down any more sine they are more careful when deciding whom they want to let in). When I’m in a public place I have a right to move around freely without interference. If someone wants to limit this right I feel I have a right to an explanation.
Now as far as 'cooperating with the authorities' is concerned, since you say you've worked as a security guard you know that the best way to get someone's respect is to treat them with respect. Friendliness breeds friendliness. Aggressiveness breeds aggressiveness. That’s what surprised me in this story. You may find Gabe’s smile irritating, that’s your right. But on the other hand, as it turned out, the police were finishing off their search, there was more than enough of them to beat the living daylights out of us if we really misbehaved, and I don’t thik that we showed them any disrespect. The fact that the policeman insists on his authority and feels the need to put Gabe in an armlock doesn’t bode well in my eyes. What would have happened if Gabe or I had really been drunk or pissed off. Imagine if Gabe’s girlfriend had just dumped him the day before. The funny thing is that a lot of the posters here are saying that we need to b more considerate of the police. All of a sudden, the police have become the subject entitled to a liberal,touchy-feely, considerate approach. On the one hand, I agree that you need to accept that policing is a tough job. On the other hand, they’re trained professionals. They know very well that when they act aggressively they can provoke an aggressive reaction. Had Gabe or I had an equally short temper, the people who were saying it’s a shame the video didn’t show any police violence would have had their share, and that for absolutely no reason. Well, no reason than that some people feel that Gabe has a silly smile on his face or that I am ugly with my rimmed glasses. Sorry, I don’t and won’t buy that argument. In this sense I may be naïve: I believe in a set of principles and if someone tries to force me in a situation where my principles and beliefs are brought under fire, I will say something about it.
On another note, everyone seems to be taking this story as a general complaint against the Netherlands. That’s the funny bit for me: if the complaint is about anything it’s about the Netherlands (unnecessarily) loosing some of its characteristics which have made it a great place in the past four hundred years. And sorry to say, but the availability of dope means nothing to me, except insofar as it shows a tolerant and pragmatic approach to the world.
By
Pavle, at 10:12 AM
praesipower
Thanks for the good wishes for my career, but I've learned that lawyers (or as in my case councillors) do tend to prosper if they understand all the possible facets of a story. Just to keep it brief: preventive searches have always been a hot topic. Under Dutch law they are permissible under certain circumstances and as I’ve said before, the courts recently found that the way they were being conducted in Amsterdam was not in accordance with Dutch law. On a more general plain, I feel that preventive searches will never be necessary and in accordance with the law (as intended by the human rights conventions). To be clear: of course the police have a right to search people. But this right is related to suspicion. In cases when you are not a suspect or even suspicious, you have the right to be left alone.
By
Pavle, at 10:31 AM
sad...story...been living here 12 years and listened to the podcast...i think that holland is confused. The laws, the state...in transition....this is obviously some weird panic reaction...searching the whole of the leidseplein with no clear mandate, scaring people. Guys you stayed cool in difficult circumstances. As another expat would like to buy you guys a beer some time and chew some cud:)
By
james burke, at 11:39 AM
as an american who has lived here longer than both of ages combined i have to say that i find it very sad that you find the dutch way of life strange. it is the aftermath of american negligence in world wide politics and thinking that it owns the world. if you live in holland, treat your host country with its laws and richts with respect, or just leave. do not come here and judge us by some little incident when all you need to do is look at your own country and see how messed up it is. prison tortures, prison rapings, street rapings, gun selling, highschool killings, killings of innocent people overseas, shall i go on? no, do not dare criticize the dutch people when your own land is majorly at fault! shame on you, shame on you!
By
Matthew Niederberger, at 11:18 PM
Thank you Matthew for your comment. I must say I am not ignorant to what is going on in the United States. I agree it is really fucked up what the states are doing all over the world. I remember when I could be proud of being American and I find myself walking more and more in shame because of it. But please do not beg the question or defer the issue. I am not criticizing the Dutch as a whole. I am criticizing the actions taken by a select few, which in my mind is the sign of going the way of the U.S. and it's both foreign and domestic policies. Do you think I want that in Holland too? No. Of course not. What I don't understand is the emmense backlash for trying to stand up for the civil rights in the Country I live in fo not only myself but for my friends and other citizens. If you all want to be ashamed of me, shame on yourselves for the backlash of me trying to do something right. All I see here is a bunch of comments telling me what I should do. Fucking slandering that I did something or I didn't do enough. What the fuck do you people want. Shall I get killed for something I believe is not right. Is that what you're fucking wanting? Instead why don't you guys go do something to go make the worrld a better place, or stand up for what you believe in?
If you beleive in the striping away of your personal rights, and trading them in for some faint idea of security fine. Again, as I said before I'm not against the police. I'm not against the Dutch. I feel like I'm a broken record. It was a small incident that is indeed the symptom of greater problems. It looks like what we have here is failure to communicate. Fine, I give up. Go about your merry surfing, and go crusade someone else who will actually care any more.
By
gabemac, at 12:00 AM
It is a difficult position you have been forced into during and after the video.
Why it has escalated from a routine search we will never know. It should have stayed as a civil conversation between two human beings but it didn't.
I guess all you can do is count your blessings it wasn't worse and hope it won't happen again. Take care and keep blogging.
By
Joan, at 3:21 AM
Hoi,
geweldig hoe jullie proberen je gelijk te krijgen aan de hand van de Wet.
Laten we de Wet houden bij diegene die er echt verstand van heeft en precies kan uitleggen wat de bedoelingen zijn van de Wet: namelijk degene die hem gemaakt heeft en degene die mag oordelen.
Met stukjes copy en paste komen jullie er echt niet hoor!
En voor de rest, over een politieagent met zijn gezicht in beeld brengen heb ik mijn bedenkingen. Of het nou zo bedoeld is of niet, dit is geen conflict meer met de politie, maar dit komt over als iemand persoonlijk aanvallen. Hij kan zich niet verdedigen.
Als je echt zo goed denkt te weten wat legaal en illegaal is, doe het dan zó dat beide partijen zich kunnen verdedigen.
By
Anonymous, at 11:12 PM
Just gave you a link on Vlog Soup: Episode 9, my free video tour of the video blogosphere!ornr
By
Steve Garfield, at 11:10 PM
you have been ReVlogged:
http://tinyurl.com/dooam
By
ryanne, at 9:04 PM
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